[ncl-talk] Important announcement regarding the future of NCL

Thu Feb 7 12:44:49 MST 2019

Hi Gus:

I think that was well said.

I, for one, was quite proud of myself for becoming proficient in NCL -- but
especially so because it is so logically designed and so useful.  It is a a
very flexible program for  both plotting data and for extracting data from
various data sets, and even has a way to run various batch commands from
within NCL. In other words, it is a programming (graphics) language that I
and others can do really useful scientific and scientific applications.

I wonder if the decision makers asked how many NCL users want to switch to
python!

Barry

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:25 PM Gus Correa <gus at ldeo.columbia.edu> wrote:

> Hi Mary, hi List and All.
>
> I share Barry's concerns for the same reasons and more,
> which I expressed in the NCL survey months ago:
>
> 0) Excellence of NCL both as a data processing and data visualization tool.
> [Why should we phase out a winner?]
>
> 1) Large code base of programs written in NCL by many users.
> [Would you phase out Fortran just because it is old-fashioned?
> Replace it by something cool and trendy, just because it is cool and
> trendy?]
>
> 2) Has the decision considered that many, if not most, NCL users are not
> expert programmers, already invested a lot of time to become proficient in
> NCL,
> and do not have the time or interest to learn another language to do the
> same things that they already do?
> The NCL user main goal is science, not programming.
>
> 3) Rapid release of Python modules (often unstable, low QC, often buggy,
> poorly documented, inconsistent versions, no
> commitment to back compatibility, etc),
> making it difficult to keep a sane code base, and requiring users to enter
> the nitty-gritty details of
> versioning and version control, instead of concentrating in using the tool
> for data analysis and science (which is their goal).
>
> 4) Possible dependency on Python relases distributed and controlled by a
> commercial
> enterprise (Anaconda.com: anaconda, miniconda and other constrictors).
>
> For example, was the decision years back by UCAR to base the netCDF-4
> structure
> and functionality on the (commercial entrerpise controlled) HDF-5
> framework a wise one?
> A few months back the HDF-5 group announced that it will no longer support
> the
> community legacy versions, and concentrate on their commercial latest
> greatest version
> and on the company profitability.
>
> I probably could list more items, but right now I am really sad to learn
> that this is NCAR's decision.
> In my view a very poor one.
>
> Thank you,
> Gus Correa
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 1:53 PM Adam Phillips <asphilli at ucar.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi Barry,
>> Just to add to what Toni said: You will be able to continue to run your
>> existing NCL scripts, there will be support through github and ncl-talk
>> (albeit there may be less responses from the developers), and NCL graphics
>> (in concert with pyNGL) will continue to be developed. I think some points
>> were left unsaid in the original letter, as future staffing and future
>> budgets are unknown.
>> Adam
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 5:46 AM Toni Klemm <toni-klemm at tamu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Barry et al.,
>>>
>>> I don’t think those programs have to be rewritten. My understanding is
>>> the NCL version on your system will keep working, it just won’t get future
>>> updates from the NCL team, and maybe less user support. Like many, I have
>>> dozens of NCL scripts, but they will keep working. For the future though,
>>> NCL users might be smart to transitioning to R or Python. FOR R and R
>>> Studio there are NCL packages, basically add-ons that allow you to process
>>> netCDF data in R. The basics of Python you can learn for example through Software
>>> Carpentry <https://software-carpentry.org>.
>>>
>>> I hope that helps.
>>>
>>> Toni
>>>
>>>
>>> *Toni Klemm**, Ph.D.*
>>> Postdoctoral Research Associate
>>> Department of Ecosystem Science and Management
>>> College of Agriculture and Life Sciences
>>> Texas A&M University, College Station, TX
>>> Contributor to the Early Career Climate Forum
>>> <https://www.eccforum.org/>
>>> www.toni-klemm.de | @toniklemm <https://twitter.com/ToniKlemm>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 6, 2019, at 10:06 PM, Barry Lynn <barry.h.lynn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mary:
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> A most pertinent question: how hard will it be for someone who has
>>> worked hard to "know" NCL to transition to Python.
>>>
>>> Also, keep in mind that I (and others) have written 10s of programs in
>>> NC, and these would need to be rewritten.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 12:59 AM Mary Haley <haley at ucar.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Barry,
>>>>
>>>> I encourage folks to read the report, as it covers in detail why the
>>>> decision to transition to Python, and what Python brings to the table:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ncl.ucar.edu/Document/Pivot_to_Python/NCL_Pivot_to_Python_Report_and_Roadmap.pdf
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ncl.ucar.edu_Document_Pivot-5Fto-5FPython_NCL-5FPivot-5Fto-5FPython-5FReport-5Fand-5FRoadmap.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=yz-Fa4nJPdDM4mRUn0H5NfqdFWgASciTiMBeSdNjHSg&e=>
>>>>
>>>> There's a section "Why Python" (starts on page 5) that explains some of
>>>> the reasoning behind this decision.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the pertinent part of that section:
>>>>
>>>> *Why Python?*
>>>> Python has gained widespread acceptance by universities and research
>>>> organizations around the world and is being adopted as the programming
>>>> language of choice for scientific computing. This is evidenced by several
>>>> factors: 1) the availability of quality scientific Python modules via the
>>>> SciPy ecosystem, 2) the continued and growing popularity of the annual
>>>> SciPy conference, now in its 17th year, 3) the availability of books on
>>>> Python for scientists, and 4) the increasing number of scientific graduate
>>>> students who are learning Python in college as an open source alternative
>>>> to other non-free software like IDL and MATLAB. In September 2018—for the
>>>> first time in history—Python entered the TIOBE index top 3 (
>>>> www.tiobe.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.tiobe.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=NPg_3kgLJfrAEc8Q3bF6ZufzwtozXd-5FCPtL3LKB9g&e=>),
>>>> a measure of popularity of programming languages based on search engine
>>>> results.
>>>>
>>>> Python has picked up rapid steam in the geoscientific community as
>>>> well. For the last eight years the American Meteorological Society Annual
>>>> Meeting has hosted a popular and well-attended symposium on the “Advances
>>>> in Modeling and Analysis Using Python”. NCAR is a major partner in the
>>>> Pangeo (pangeo.io
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__pangeo.io&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=_BI6R6g4EqWUuigwl0IZHXnwHXFSOz47FSLhJSZdYMI&e=>)
>>>> community, an NSF EarthCube funded effort that provides an “open source
>>>> scientific Python ecosystem for ocean / atmosphere / land / climate
>>>> science” and is focused on providing tools and support for handling
>>>> petabyte-scale datasets on HPC and cloud platforms. There are hundreds of
>>>> scientific Python modules that provide domain-specific functionality for
>>>> reading/writing data, computational analyses, and visualization. The
>>>> benefit of these individual packages is that they are usually specialized
>>>> for a specific domain or class of problems, thus filling a critical need
>>>> that a more general-purpose language cannot.
>>>>
>>>> The Python language itself provides rich language features that NCL
>>>> does not have, including optional arguments, a robust interactive
>>>> interface, generators, exception handling, and built-in debugging and
>>>> testing. The Python community has a rapidly growing base of scientific
>>>> software developers that are able to address the growing needs of the
>>>> geoscientific community much faster than we can in the areas of
>>>> scalability, interfaces to other languages like R for statistical
>>>> calculations, and support for a wider range of complex data formats. By
>>>> replacing the NCL language with the Python language, the NCL user base will
>>>> instantly gain access to these features, and we will be able to benefit
>>>> from the already vibrant and active open development Python community.
>>>> Python itself has been open developed since October 2000.
>>>> Last but not least, it is becoming harder to hire developers who want
>>>> to work on a programming language with a narrow focus, versus a highly
>>>> visible and mainstream language like Python.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this addresses your questions.
>>>>
>>>> --Mary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 7:29 AM Barry Lynn <barry.h.lynn at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Mary:
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you please help us understand what critical features are missing
>>>>> from NCL but present in python so that we better understand why we should
>>>>> switch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mary Haley <haley at ucar.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear NCL Users,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This letter is in regard to the future of NCL, following NCAR's
>>>>>> decision to move to Python as the scripting language of choice for future
>>>>>> visualization and analysis software development. Note that this decision
>>>>>> targets new development, leaving existing NCL functionality intact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NCAR is committed to supporting data analysis software for
>>>>>> atmospheric, oceanic, and climate science research. However, decreases in
>>>>>> budgets and staff, coupled with the enormous functionality that Python
>>>>>> brings to the earth sciences, has made it difficult to justify continuing
>>>>>> new development on NCL. Python has seen rapid adoption by the earth science
>>>>>> community and duplicates much of NCL's functionality, while adding critical
>>>>>> features that NCL doesn't offer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on recommendations from NSF, CISL and NCL advisory panels, the
>>>>>> results of the NCL survey, and months of evaluating different strategies
>>>>>> for the future development and support of NCL, NCAR has arrived at these
>>>>>> major decisions, effective immediately:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Python will be adopted as the scripting language platform for
>>>>>>    future visualization and analysis development.
>>>>>>    - NCL's core language and file I/O will be placed into
>>>>>>    maintenance mode.
>>>>>>    - NCL's graphics will have continued development through PyNGL
>>>>>>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pyngl.ucar.edu&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=XjUKpVjTosG1QXg8tPanvc1VWz8lgMBhRmHlr54D4ww&e=>
>>>>>>    ***.
>>>>>>    - NCL's unique and critical computational routines will be ported
>>>>>>    to an as-yet-to-be-named Python package.
>>>>>>    - PyNIO
>>>>>>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pyngl.ucar.edu_Nio.shtml&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=eYYQhhwmjnYoMGlTw_DrlkxnLRKaZf9qt4qZ7oIl4b0&e=>
>>>>>>    *** will be placed into maintenance mode.
>>>>>>    - Development will continue on WRF-Python
>>>>>>    <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wrf-2Dpython.readthedocs.io_en_latest_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=SRZaRV6rql3QcJHAIFeRtPaJNotCWR_YFuywSlAxDAk&e=>
>>>>>>    ***.
>>>>>>    - All software, including NCL and PyNIO, will be moved to a more
>>>>>>    open development software platform to allow for continued community
>>>>>>    development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *** PyNIO, PyNGL, and WRF-Python are Python modules built on top of
>>>>>> NCL libraries, and are developed and supported by the NCL team.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NCAR recognizes the significance of these changes. It will take time
>>>>>> for NCL users to transition to Python, and some users may not want to make
>>>>>> the switch at all. As such, we want to stress that NCL is not going away.
>>>>>> NCL users will be able to download NCL and execute their scripts for the
>>>>>> foreseeable future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To help users who want to begin transitioning their graphical NCL
>>>>>> scripts to PyNGL right away, Karin Meier-Fleischer of DKRZ has written a
>>>>>> first draft of an "NCL-to-Python Transition Guide
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A___www.ncl.ucar.edu_Document_Manuals_NCL-5Fto-5FPython_Transition-5FGuide-5FNCL-5FPyNGL.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=a3sboqqRFVThkjcuPudM_0tLy_Bo0eDIIlgK5OASFwo&e=>"
>>>>>> accompanied by a suite of NCL and Python examples
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ncl.ucar.edu_Applications_NCL-5Fto-5FPython_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=LEBpgpbmvF5EKsuZVq-Oik-e3WTT26MmT6Zy0FCeb40&e=>.
>>>>>> Additionally, we will soon begin converting a subset of the NCL application
>>>>>> examples to Python, using PyNGL
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.pyngl.ucar.edu_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=VZDbL9EjlrCHncOZb_tT6Q8ifLAfXDt5XR1_thUOj9M&e=>
>>>>>>  and matplotlib
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__matplotlib.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=houOTRZi2bLqejxNKntfvEpoJj3nsFfjc_keFU-o4NE&e=>,
>>>>>> and will continue to answer questions on the ncl-talk
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_ncl-2Dtalk&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=TEqpggwoOULSGTXA0ktYGBrVl79eAsBtpqWNPVyiGe4&e=>
>>>>>>  email list, but scaling back in order to start helping with Python
>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For a detailed report and roadmap on the "pivot to Python" decision
>>>>>> and transition plan, please read the "NCL and the Pivot to Python:
>>>>>> Discussion and Roadmap
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ncl.ucar.edu_Document_Pivot-5Fto-5FPython_NCL-5FPivot-5Fto-5FPython-5FReport-5Fand-5FRoadmap.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=yz-Fa4nJPdDM4mRUn0H5NfqdFWgASciTiMBeSdNjHSg&e=>"
>>>>>> report, which can be found on a special page we created containing other
>>>>>> supporting documents
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ncl.ucar.edu_Document_Pivot-5Fto-5FPython_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=SRVKQ5isbDnyHvL4wzQeQEpJthMV6M3e0w01qJF9S50&e=>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The NCL team welcomes your input on this decision. We also want to
>>>>>> know if there are other ways we can help ease the transition to Python and
>>>>>> encourage users to become more active contributors through open
>>>>>> development. Please use this GitHub issue
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_NCAR_ncl_issues_64&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=2dmElBi9C2oq4us6lvx7AJ7C9I8qbH8wiV1PzKs9u3k&e=>
>>>>>>  to submit questions or comments so we can keep the discussion
>>>>>> public.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *NCL Team:*
>>>>>> John Clyne (acting group head)
>>>>>> Rick Brownrigg
>>>>>> Mary Haley
>>>>>> Kevin Hallock
>>>>>> Bill Ladwig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> ncl-talk mailing list
>>>>>> ncl-talk at ucar.edu
>>>>>> List instructions, subscriber options, unsubscribe:
>>>>>> http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/ncl-talk
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_ncl-2Dtalk&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=TEqpggwoOULSGTXA0ktYGBrVl79eAsBtpqWNPVyiGe4&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Barry H. Lynn, Ph.D
>>>>> Senior Associate Scientist, Lecturer,
>>>>> The Institute of the Earth Science,
>>>>> The Hebrew University of Jerusalem,
>>>>> Givat Ram, Jerusalem 91904, Israel
>>>>> Tel: 972 547 231 170
>>>>> Fax: (972)-25662581
>>>>>
>>>>> C.E.O, Weather It Is, LTD
>>>>> Weather and Climate Focus
>>>>> http://weather-it-is.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__weather-2Dit-2Dis.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=Uv0CFIV_YJOKuyMuPo3lRqFEZpZiEHfHOPwrZRcPADU&e=>
>>>>> Jerusalem, Israel
>>>>> Local: 02 930 9525
>>>>> Cell: 054 7 231 170
>>>>> Int-IS: x972 2 930 9525
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Barry H. Lynn, Ph.D
>>> Senior Associate Scientist, Lecturer,
>>> The Institute of the Earth Science,
>>> The Hebrew University of Jerusalem,
>>> Givat Ram, Jerusalem 91904, Israel
>>> Tel: 972 547 231 170
>>> Fax: (972)-25662581
>>>
>>> C.E.O, Weather It Is, LTD
>>> Weather and Climate Focus
>>> http://weather-it-is.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__weather-2Dit-2Dis.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=ODFT-G5SujMiGrKuoJJjVg&r=WsLJ5ywbW3XnTzqo_ETV62H6s1a5bcGgnrpl7xPRfic&m=iOo39tnO8aeORpG5noJIhwsDxjOcD1HnwHFp0MTvde4&s=Uv0CFIV_YJOKuyMuPo3lRqFEZpZiEHfHOPwrZRcPADU&e=>
>>> Jerusalem, Israel
>>> Local: 02 930 9525
>>> Cell: 054 7 231 170
>>> Int-IS: x972 2 930 9525
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Adam Phillips
>> Associate Scientist,  Climate and Global Dynamics Laboratory, NCAR
>> www.cgd.ucar.edu/staff/asphilli/   303-497-1726
>>
>> <http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/staff/asphilli>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ncl-talk mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Barry H. Lynn, Ph.D
Senior Associate Scientist, Lecturer,
The Institute of the Earth Science,
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem,
Givat Ram, Jerusalem 91904, Israel
Tel: 972 547 231 170
Fax: (972)-25662581

C.E.O, Weather It Is, LTD
Weather and Climate Focus
http://weather-it-is.com
Jerusalem, Israel
Local: 02 930 9525
Cell: 054 7 231 170
Int-IS: x972 2 930 9525
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