[Met_help] [rt.rap.ucar.edu #78552] History for Recommend use of URMA gridded obs for verification (UNCLASSIFIED)
John Halley Gotway via RT
met_help at ucar.edu
Tue Nov 8 09:44:35 MST 2016
----------------------------------------------------------------
Initial Request
----------------------------------------------------------------
CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
On the DTC website where you describe gridded analysis products, reference is
made to use of RTMA for gridded observations and the link is provided to
access the RTMA products. Ref the email below from Steven Levine, which says
that the NWS uses the Unrestricted Mesoscale Analysis (URMA) for verification
because it is based on a more complete set of point observations. The RTMA is
more of a "quick look" product for users who can't wait the additional 6 hours
to get the product.
For additional reference, see the following link for NWS implementation of
URMA: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/notification/tin13-39rtma_q4aaa.htm
At this page, see the section on "Implementation of URMA".
The link you provide on the DTC site to the RTMA products is the same one
which provides access to the URMA products.
You might want to consider adding a description of the URMA product on the DTC
site where you describe gridded analysis products and provide the link to the
RTMA product mentioning that the NWS uses URMA and not RTMA for verification.
FYI, I understand from Steven, that they are working with NCDC on an archive
site for URMA products which would provide access to older URMA products in
addition to the real time products.
R/
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Levine - NOAA Affiliate [mailto:steven.levine at noaa.gov]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 11:05 AM
To: Carissa Klemmer, NCEP Support <ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov>
Cc: Raby, John W CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US) <john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil>;
Cosgrove, Rebecca L CIV (US) <rebecca.cosgrove at noaa.gov>; Pondeca, Manuel S
CTR (MZ) <manuel.pondeca at noaa.gov>
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [DATAFLOW #JJP-62753-544] Question about 2.5 km
URMA product (UNCLASSIFIED)
All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the
identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links contained
within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.
________________________________
John,
In short, URMA is just RTMA run six hours later to account for latent
observations. We got a lot of complaints from within the weather service
about RTMA clearly not incorporating certain obs, making the field difficult
to use for verification. This happened because the obs arrived here after the
ob file for RTMA was generated. By running 6 hours later, we include all of
these observations.
URMA (not RTMA) is what is being used within NWS for tuning and verification,
RTMA remains for the real-time need. I would suggest using URMA for anything
that can wait longer than 6 hours after the analysis time.
As Carissa says, unfortunately at this point there is no publicly accessible
URMA archive, though RTMA data is available through the NCEI and NOMADS.
We're trying to set up a similar system for URMA.
How far back are you looking for URMA data? Depending on your needs, we
*might* be able to pull it from our internal system and put it somewhere for
you to grab.
Steve
On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Carissa Klemmer, NCEP Support
<ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov < Caution-mailto:ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov > >
wrote:
Steve, Manuel,
Can you assist this user with understanding the difference between RTMA and
URMA. Perhaps some documentation about the differences. Thanks.
Carissa Klemmer
NCEP Central Operations
On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 12:42:39 -0400, "Carissa Klemmer, NCEP Support"
<ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov < Caution-mailto:ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov > >
wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Let me see if I can answer some of your questions. First, can you show me
where you have found the https websites? I don't believe that any of our
services are offered through https, just http. Can you also share the NDGD
site you visited? I'll see if I can make heads or tails of what data you are
seeing where. The RTMA is available in archive from NCEI/NCDC, but the URMA is
not yet. Here is the NCEI NOMADS website to use -
Caution-http://nomads.ncdc.noaa.gov/ < Caution-http://nomads.ncdc.noaa.gov/ >
.
> I don't have the answers of what the differences is between RTMA and URMA
are, but I will cc the developers to answer that for you and point you to some
documentation.
>
> Carissa Klemmer
> NCEP Central Operations
>
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:10:38 -0400, "Raby, John W CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL
(US)" <john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil < Caution-mailto:john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil >
> wrote:
> > CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
> >
> > Rebecca -
> >
> > I am a research meteorologist working at the Army Research Laboratory and
I
> > am looking for ways to access the URMA product, both archived and
real-time.
> > My location here at White Sands Missile Range makes it impossible to use
> > ftp, so my preferred access method is https. I found reference to the
URMA
> > in NWS Technical Implementation Notice 13-39 which mentions the NCEP,
> > NOMADS, and NDGD servers which I visited. The NCEP server has real-time
URMA
> > products via https, which looks promising, but only addresses my need for
> > real-time data. The NOMADS server doesn't have the URMA product, but does
> > have a similar product called RTMA which is only for real-time via https.
> > The NDGD server appears to have archived data for RTMA, but not URMA via
> > https. Is the RTMA product the same as the URMA product? Where could I
> > obtain archived URMA (preferred) and/or RTMA products via https?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > R/
> > John
> >
> > Mr John W. Raby, Meteorologist
> > U.S. Army Research Laboratory
> > White Sands Missile Range, NM 88002
> > (575) 678-2004 < tel:%28575%29%20678-2004 > DSN 258-2004
> > FAX (575) 678-1230 < tel:%28575%29%20678-1230 > DSN 258-1230
> > Email: john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil <
Caution-mailto:john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil >
> >
> >
> > CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
----------------------------------------------------------------
Complete Ticket History
----------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Recommend use of URMA gridded obs for verification (UNCLASSIFIED)
From: John Halley Gotway
Time: Tue Nov 01 16:55:32 2016
John,
That's great feedback. Thanks for the info. I do remember that URMA
has
largely replaced the RTMA. I'll forward this issue to one of our
scientists to update the website with more relevant information.
Please let us know if you have any trouble utilizing URMA (or RTMA)
datasets in your MET runs.
Thanks,
John
On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Raby, John W USA CIV via RT <
met_help at ucar.edu> wrote:
>
> Tue Nov 01 12:52:22 2016: Request 78552 was acted upon.
> Transaction: Ticket created by john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil
> Queue: met_help
> Subject: Recommend use of URMA gridded obs for verification
> (UNCLASSIFIED)
> Owner: Nobody
> Requestors: john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil
> Status: new
> Ticket <URL:
https://rt.rap.ucar.edu/rt/Ticket/Display.html?id=78552 >
>
>
> CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
>
> On the DTC website where you describe gridded analysis products,
reference
> is
> made to use of RTMA for gridded observations and the link is
provided to
> access the RTMA products. Ref the email below from Steven Levine,
which
> says
> that the NWS uses the Unrestricted Mesoscale Analysis (URMA) for
> verification
> because it is based on a more complete set of point observations.
The RTMA
> is
> more of a "quick look" product for users who can't wait the
additional 6
> hours
> to get the product.
>
> For additional reference, see the following link for NWS
implementation of
> URMA: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/notification/tin13-39rtma_q4aaa.htm
> At this page, see the section on "Implementation of URMA".
>
> The link you provide on the DTC site to the RTMA products is the
same one
> which provides access to the URMA products.
>
> You might want to consider adding a description of the URMA product
on the
> DTC
> site where you describe gridded analysis products and provide the
link to
> the
> RTMA product mentioning that the NWS uses URMA and not RTMA for
> verification.
>
> FYI, I understand from Steven, that they are working with NCDC on an
> archive
> site for URMA products which would provide access to older URMA
products
> in
> addition to the real time products.
>
> R/
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Levine - NOAA Affiliate [mailto:steven.levine at noaa.gov]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 11:05 AM
> To: Carissa Klemmer, NCEP Support <ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov>
> Cc: Raby, John W CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US)
<john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil>;
> Cosgrove, Rebecca L CIV (US) <rebecca.cosgrove at noaa.gov>; Pondeca,
Manuel
> S
> CTR (MZ) <manuel.pondeca at noaa.gov>
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [DATAFLOW #JJP-62753-544] Question
about 2.5
> km
> URMA product (UNCLASSIFIED)
>
> All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please
verify the
> identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links
contained
> within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web
> browser.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> John,
>
>
> In short, URMA is just RTMA run six hours later to account for
latent
> observations. We got a lot of complaints from within the weather
service
> about RTMA clearly not incorporating certain obs, making the field
> difficult
> to use for verification. This happened because the obs arrived here
after
> the
> ob file for RTMA was generated. By running 6 hours later, we
include all
> of
> these observations.
>
>
> URMA (not RTMA) is what is being used within NWS for tuning and
> verification,
> RTMA remains for the real-time need. I would suggest using URMA for
> anything
> that can wait longer than 6 hours after the analysis time.
>
> As Carissa says, unfortunately at this point there is no publicly
> accessible
> URMA archive, though RTMA data is available through the NCEI and
NOMADS.
> We're trying to set up a similar system for URMA.
>
>
> How far back are you looking for URMA data? Depending on your
needs, we
> *might* be able to pull it from our internal system and put it
somewhere
> for
> you to grab.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Carissa Klemmer, NCEP Support
> <ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov < Caution-
mailto:ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov >
> >
> wrote:
>
>
> Steve, Manuel,
>
> Can you assist this user with understanding the difference
between
> RTMA and
> URMA. Perhaps some documentation about the differences. Thanks.
>
> Carissa Klemmer
> NCEP Central Operations
>
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 12:42:39 -0400, "Carissa Klemmer, NCEP
Support"
> <ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov < Caution-
mailto:ncep.pmb.dataflow at noaa.gov >
> >
> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Let me see if I can answer some of your questions. First,
can
> you show me
> where you have found the https websites? I don't believe that any of
our
> services are offered through https, just http. Can you also share
the NDGD
> site you visited? I'll see if I can make heads or tails of what data
you
> are
> seeing where. The RTMA is available in archive from NCEI/NCDC, but
the
> URMA is
> not yet. Here is the NCEI NOMADS website to use -
> Caution-http://nomads.ncdc.noaa.gov/ < Caution-http://nomads.ncdc.
> noaa.gov/ >
> .
> > I don't have the answers of what the differences is
between RTMA
> and URMA
> are, but I will cc the developers to answer that for you and point
you to
> some
> documentation.
> >
> > Carissa Klemmer
> > NCEP Central Operations
> >
> > On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:10:38 -0400, "Raby, John W CIV
USARMY
> RDECOM ARL
> (US)" <john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil < Caution-mailto:john.w.raby2.
> civ at mail.mil >
> > wrote:
> > > CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
> > >
> > > Rebecca -
> > >
> > > I am a research meteorologist working at the Army
Research
> Laboratory and
> I
> > > am looking for ways to access the URMA product, both
archived
> and
> real-time.
> > > My location here at White Sands Missile Range makes it
> impossible to use
> > > ftp, so my preferred access method is https. I found
reference
> to the
> URMA
> > > in NWS Technical Implementation Notice 13-39 which
mentions
> the NCEP,
> > > NOMADS, and NDGD servers which I visited. The NCEP
server has
> real-time
> URMA
> > > products via https, which looks promising, but only
addresses
> my need for
> > > real-time data. The NOMADS server doesn't have the URMA
> product, but does
> > > have a similar product called RTMA which is only for
real-time
> via https.
> > > The NDGD server appears to have archived data for RTMA,
but
> not URMA via
> > > https. Is the RTMA product the same as the URMA product?
Where
> could I
> > > obtain archived URMA (preferred) and/or RTMA products
via
> https?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > R/
> > > John
> > >
> > > Mr John W. Raby, Meteorologist
> > > U.S. Army Research Laboratory
> > > White Sands Missile Range, NM 88002
> > > (575) 678-2004 < tel:%28575%29%20678-2004 > DSN 258-
2004
> > > FAX (575) 678-1230 < tel:%28575%29%20678-1230 > DSN
258-1230
> > > Email: john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil <
> Caution-mailto:john.w.raby2.civ at mail.mil >
> > >
> > >
> > > CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
>
>
>
>
>
> CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED
>
>
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