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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hello,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>when is the next telco, and is this issue on the
agenda?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=076432610-16032012><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Jamie</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu
[mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gavin M.
Bell<BR><B>Sent:</B> 12 March 2012 22:21<BR><B>To:</B> Barron Jr, Tom
O.<BR><B>Cc:</B> go-essp-tech@ucar.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Go-essp-tech]
What is the risk that science is done using 'deprecated'
data?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hi Tom, <BR><BR>I don't envy your (ORNL's .et al) position, but
this is what must be done. This is why Balaji was so adamant about
making checksums *required* from the very beginning of this endeavor. He
was right. Though, to be honest it was always something that was
known... this is not a surprise to anyone. I think that having it be
"optional" in the publisher was the sticky point. Putting it in the
publisher is, IMHO, or should be the checksum of last resort. Folks
should have schemes to calculate these things out of band and integrating them
back into the publisher... a feature that made it's way into the publisher
albeit a bit after the bell. It is no one's fault just a comedy of
errors but... now we are all enlightened and know *why* we need checksums
(hashes) in a distributed system that requires integrity assertions made about
said data.<BR><BR>Oh well :-(...<BR><BR>At least we are relatively early in
the game... if that is any consolation :-\<BR><BR>checksums or
bust.<BR><BR>P.S.<BR>Regarding the catalogs, the topic Stephen has been
shepherding, there are cool things we can do with having the constituent
files' checksums. Mmmwwaaahhh aahhh aahhhh.... (evil
laugh).<BR><BR><BR>On 3/12/12 9:46 AM, Barron Jr, Tom O. wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:D13BDDD1-BA7D-46F1-9D51-79FA5217FACA@ornl.gov
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Thanks for the reply, Gavin. I understand what you say.
I just wanted to highlight that a significant amount of data has been published without checksums at ORNL on the ESG2 gateway. Extracting it all from the HPSS archive for checksumming in preparation for republishing on the ESGF portal will take significant time. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. Just that we shouldn't expect to get it done quickly.
Tom
On 2012.0309, at 17:24, Gavin M. Bell wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hi Tom,
In the simplest form of the assertions we have made about checksums... If you can't get the checksums then it shouldn't / can't be published, period. So access must be gotten and checksums computed. Otherwise you simply can't *trust* the data is "who it says it is".
On 3/9/12 11:10 AM, Barron Jr, Tom O. wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">How will a requirement for checksums affect the ability to publish offline datasets that are not immediately accessible for computing a checksum?
On 2012.0309, at 03:47, Gavin M. Bell wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">With checksums, we can put in client-side sanity checking tools to give users peace of mind. The other side benefit would be alerting offending sites that something is wrong. I agree with you, Bryan, checksums are a must. We can enforce it mechanically in the publisher. This is worth bringing up at the next call - without spending too much time on it.
On 3/9/12 12:20 AM, Bryan Lawrence wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Karl has written to modellng centres requiring them to do this, and I think we should start enforcing it.
Bryan
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hello,
If we enforced checksums to be done as a part of publication, then this
would address this issue, right?
On 3/8/12 8:39 AM,
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</A>
wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Tobias, sorry I miss-typed your name :-)
S.
On 8 Mar 2012, at 16:00,
<A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk"><stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk></A>
wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hi Thomas,
As you say, it's too late to do much re-engineering of the system now -- we've attempted to put in place various identifier systems and none of them are working particularly well -- however I think there is another perspective to your proposal:
1. ESG/CMIP5 is deployed globally across multiple administrative domains and each domain has the ability to cut corners to get things done, e.g. replacing files silently without changing identifiers.
2. ESG/CMIP5 system is so complex that who'd blame a sys-admin for doing #1 to get the data to scientists when they need it. Any system that makes it impossible, or even only difficult, to change the underlying data is going to be more complex and difficult to administer than a system that doesn't, unless that system was very rigorously designed, implemented and tested.
Because of #1 I'm convinced that a fit-for-purpose identifier system wouldn't use randomly generated UUIDs but would take the GIT approach of hashing invariants of the dataset so that any changes behind the scenes can be detected.
Because of #2 I'm convinced that now is not the time to start building more software to do this. We have to stabilise the system and learn the lessons of CMIP5 first.
Cheers,
Stephen.
On 8 Mar 2012, at 15:32, Tobias Weigel wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Jamie/All,
these are important questions I have been wondering about as well; we just had a small internal meeting yesterday with Estani and Martina, so I'll try to sum some points up here. I am not too familiar with the ESG publishing process, so I can only guess that Stephen's #1 has something to do with the bending of policies that are for pragmatic reasons not enforced in the CMIP5 process. (My intuition is that *ideally* it should be impossible to make data available without going through the whole publication process. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding this.)
Most of what I have been thinking about however concerns point #2. I'd claim that the risk here should not be underestimated; data consumers being unable to find the data they need is bad ("the advanced search issue"), but users relying on deprecated data - most likely without being aware of it - is certainly dangerous for scientific credibility.
My suggestion to address this problem is to use globally persistent identifiers (PIDs) that are automatically assigned to data objects (and metadata etc.) on ESG-publication; data should ideally not be known by its file name or system-internal ID, but via a global identifier that never changes after it has been published. Of course, this sounds like the DOIs, but these are extremely coarse grained and very static. The idea is to attach identifiers to the low-level entities and provide solutions to build up a hierarchical ID system (virtual collections) to account for the various layers used in our data. Such persistent identifiers should then be placed prominently in any user interface dealing with managed data. The important thing is: If data is updated, we don't update the data behind identifier x, but assign a new identifier y and create a typed link between these two (which may be the most challenging part) and perhaps put a small annotation on x that this data is depreca
ted. A clever user interface should then redirect a user consistently to the latest version of a dataset if a user accesses the old identifier.
This does not make it impossible to use deprecated data, but at least it raises the consumer's awareness of the issue and lowers the barrier to re-retrieve valid data.
As for the point in time; I'd be certain that it is too late now, but it is always a good idea to have plans for future improvement.. :)
Best, Tobias
Am 08.03.2012 13:06, schrieb Kettleborough, Jamie:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Thanks for the replies on this - any other replies are still very welcome.
Stephen - being selfish - we aren't too worried about 2 as its less of an issue for us (we do a daily trawl of thredds catalogues for new datasets), but I agree it is a problem more generally. I don't have a feel for which of the problems 1-3 would minimise the risk most if you solved it. I think making sure new data has a new version is a foundation though.
Part of me wonders though whether its already too late to really do anything with versioning in its current form. *But* I may be overestimating the size of the problem of new datasets appearing without versions being updated.
Jamie
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From:
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</A>
[
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</A>
] On Behalf Of Sébastien Denvil
Sent: 08 March 2012 10:41
To:
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</A>
Subject: Re: [Go-essp-tech] What is the risk that science is
done using 'deprecated' data?
Hi Stephen, let me add a third point:
3. Users are aware of a new versions but can't download files
so as to have a coherent set of files.
With respect to that point the p2p transition (especially the
attribut caching on the node) will be a major step forward.
GFDL just upgrad and we have an amazing success rate of 98%.
And I agree with Ashish.
Regards.
Sébastien
Le 08/03/2012 11:34,
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</A>
a écrit :
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hi Jamie,
I can imagine there is a risk of papers being written on
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">deprecated data in two scenarios:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> 1. Data is being updated at datanodes without creating a
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">new version
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap=""> 2. Users are unaware of new versions available and
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">therefore using
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">deprecated data
Are you concerned about both of these scenarios? Your
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">email seems to mainly address #1.
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Thanks,
Stephen.
On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:21, Kettleborough, Jamie wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hello,
Does anyone have a feel for the current level of risk that
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">analysists
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">are doing work (with the intention to publish) on data
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">that has been
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">found to be wrong by the data providers and so deprecated (in some
sense)?
My feeling is that versioning isn't working (that may be
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">putting it a
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">bit strongly. It is too easy for data providers - in their
understandable drive to get their data out - to have
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">updated files on
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">disk without publishing a new version. How big a deal does anyone
think this is?
If the risk that papers are being written based on
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">deprecated data is
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">sufficiently large then is there an agreed strategy for
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">coping with
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">this? Does it have implications for the requirements of the data
publishing/delivery system?
Thanks,
Jamie
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">--
Sébastien Denvil
IPSL, Pôle de modélisation du climat
UPMC, Case 101, 4 place Jussieu,
75252 Paris Cedex 5
Tour 45-55 2ème étage Bureau 209
Tel: 33 1 44 27 21 10
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">Department of Data Management
Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum GmbH (German Climate Computing Center)
Bundesstr. 45a
20146 Hamburg
Germany
Tel.: +49 40 460094 104
E-Mail:
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:weigel@dkrz.de">weigel@dkrz.de</A>
Website:
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.dkrz.de">www.dkrz.de</A>
Managing Director: Prof. Dr. Thomas Ludwig
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 39784
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">--
Bryan Lawrence
University of Reading: Professor of Weather and Climate Computing.
National Centre for Atmospheric Science: Director of Models and Data.
STFC: Director of the Centre for Environmental Data Archival.
Ph: +44 118 3786507 or 1235 445012; Web:home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">--
Gavin M. Bell
--
"Never mistake a clear view for a short distance."
-Paul Saffo
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap="">--
Gavin M. Bell
--
"Never mistake a clear view for a short distance."
-Paul Saffo
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=""></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
Gavin M. Bell
Lawrence Livermore National Labs
--
"Never mistake a clear view for a short distance."
-Paul Saffo
(GPG Key - <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://rainbow.llnl.gov/dist/keys/gavin.asc">http://rainbow.llnl.gov/dist/keys/gavin.asc</A>)
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