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Hi, <br>
<br>
IMHO, I think we need to simple discuss a quick cost/benefit
analysis of this endeavor. Why do we need this grammar? What it
enables? Why is that important? and then How would we go about doing
it... and what resources are involved. Basically, is the juice
worth the squeeze. The basic thinking I have on this is that it
would be a good thing to know the shape of the catalog in so far as
the shape of it will enable new capabilities. If the benefit of
knowing the shape of this box "only" makes life easier for those
doing machinations at that level... then... well, that is what we
should find out. Is it on fire? Or is this a Cassandra moment - as
I have been having on this topic for over a year and a half. Thus
far it has not moved into the realm of "on fire" which leads me to
perhaps believe that this kind of thing is best left to a select and
motivated few that should go off and fix it and then report back so
we all can leverage it. I don't think there needs to be a lot of
sausage makers here. This is why I proposed that Stephen start a
working group if one is not already there. <br>
<br>
Oops.. that reminds me, making a working group page fell off my
radar after the F2F... I will do that. For now I recommend
appending this task to that of the Information Architecture (Data
Model) Interface Group that Stephen is already the lead on. :-) How
serendipitous. :-)<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://esgf.org/wiki/ESGFInterfaceGroups">http://esgf.org/wiki/ESGFInterfaceGroups</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://esgf.org/wiki/ESGFInterfaceGroups/InformationArchitecture">http://esgf.org/wiki/ESGFInterfaceGroups/InformationArchitecture</a> <br>
<br>
On 3/12/12 5:41 AM, Kettleborough, Jamie wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:E51EDFEBF10BE44BB4BDAF5FC2F024B90FB7FC2B@EXXMAIL02.desktop.frd.metoffice.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19190">
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Hello,</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I'm not quite sure how
to respond to all the replies to this - I'm not sure I
understand all the terms used for one thing - but thanks to
everyone for engaging in this discussion.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I think there is
agreement that anything too new or innovative on this should
not be done until CMIP6+. *BUT* I think we still have to
ask whether we are happy with the current level of risk at
CMIP5, and if not what can we do about it? If we leave it
all to CMIP6+ then fine, but I *think* that is equivalent to
an implied 'yes we can live with this level of risk at
CMIP5'.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Gavin - I think you
offered a slot on the Telco to talk about this. I think
that is a good idea - with the focus being on what we can do
for CMIP5. This may be more a project management type issue
rather than some deep technical discussion, but *my* feeling
is its sufficiently important that it is worth talking about
it. (But I don't have all the information, so can
be ignored and I won't be upset). Anyone agree?</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Thanks again,</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="032431412-12032012"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Jamie</font></span></div>
<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255);
padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"
dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr" class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us"
align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Morgan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12 March 2012 10:55<br>
<b>To:</b> Tobias Weigel<br>
<b>Cc:</b> V Balaji; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Go-essp-tech] What is the risk that
science is done using'deprecated' data?<br>
</font><br>
</div>
Hi
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In relation to CMIP6+ there really needs to be stronger
focus upon <u>process</u>, i.e. what is the development
process for resolving these kind of problems. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For this particular problem I am thinking particularly of
test driven development. I.E. after a <u>formal definition</u>
of the problem space, develop a <u>test framework</u> for
testing possible solutions prior to trying to implement a
solution. This will ensure that you have understood the
problem space correctly whilst guaranteeing the robustness of
potential solution(s).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mark </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 12 Mar 2012, at 11:41, Tobias Weigel wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>I'd be very much interested in such a discussion in
ExArch, not just because it provides a sane hashing
methodology, but also because this 'dataset essence' has
a large overlap with information I would feel is useful
to attach directly to persistent identifiers. Might even
be exactly that, but might be a bit larger.<br>
<br>
Best, Tobias<br>
<br>
On 12.03.2012 11:17:31, V Balaji wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I like the idea -- in the CMIP6
timeframe, as Estani reminds us:-) --<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">of compiling a list of
invariants and things about a dataset that can<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">change without the underlying
data changing. We have discussed in the<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">past with Unidata an nc_chksum
capability that can hash or sum<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">specific data records for
comparison, so that we can omit superficial<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">changes from a sum. Remik
Ziemlinski of GFDL implemented nccmp<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">(<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nccmp.sourceforge.net">http://nccmp.sourceforge.net</a>)
that allows some of this capability,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">but it properly belongs in the
netCDF base libraries.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Happy to discuss this within
ExArch as you suggest. It's taking us<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">deep into metaphysical
territory: a hash representation of the<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">Platonic essence, the Atman, the
soul of a dataset.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 2:26
AM,<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Gavin,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">That would definitely help but
I don't think it's sufficient. How many of us would
notice if a centre republished the same dataset
(same dataset_id and facet metadata) with different
checksums? Estani would I expect :-) but the system
itself wouldn't.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I would like to see a hash of
invariants of each dataset used as identifiers. For
that we'd need to strip-out all the information from
a THREDDS catalog which might legitimately change
without changing the data: URL paths, service
endpoints, last-modified, etc., but keeping
filenames, checksums and some properties.
Canonicalise a serialisiation then generate a hash.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">We'd also need to really keep
track of these hashes. We have checksums and
tracking_ids right now and are under-utilising them.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Cheers,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Stephen.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">On 9 Mar 2012, at 05:05, Gavin
M. Bell wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hello,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">If we enforced checksums to be
done as a part of publication, then this would
address this issue, right?<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">On 3/8/12 8:39 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Tobias, sorry I miss-typed
your name :-)<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">S.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">On 8 Mar 2012, at 16:00,<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Thomas,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">As you say, it's too late to
do much re-engineering of the system now -- we've
attempted to put in place various identifier systems
and none of them are working particularly well --
however I think there is another perspective to your
proposal:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">1. ESG/CMIP5 is deployed
globally across multiple administrative domains and
each domain has the ability to cut corners to get
things done, e.g. replacing files silently without
changing identifiers.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">2. ESG/CMIP5 system is so
complex that who'd blame a sys-admin for doing #1 to
get the data to scientists when they need it. Any
system that makes it impossible, or even only
difficult, to change the underlying data is going to
be more complex and difficult to administer than a
system that doesn't, unless that system was very
rigorously designed, implemented and tested.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Because of #1 I'm convinced
that a fit-for-purpose identifier system wouldn't
use randomly generated UUIDs but would take the GIT
approach of hashing invariants of the dataset so
that any changes behind the scenes can be detected.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Because of #2 I'm convinced
that now is not the time to start building more
software to do this. We have to stabilise the
system and learn the lessons of CMIP5 first.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Cheers,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Stephen.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">On 8 Mar 2012, at 15:32,
Tobias Weigel wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Jamie/All,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">these are important questions
I have been wondering about as well; we just had a
small internal meeting yesterday with Estani and
Martina, so I'll try to sum some points up here. I
am not too familiar with the ESG publishing process,
so I can only guess that Stephen's #1 has something
to do with the bending of policies that are for
pragmatic reasons not enforced in the CMIP5 process.
(My intuition is that *ideally* it should be
impossible to make data available without going
through the whole publication process. Please
correct me if I am misunderstanding this.)<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Most of what I have been
thinking about however concerns point #2. I'd claim
that the risk here should not be underestimated;
data consumers being unable to find the data they
need is bad ("the advanced search issue"), but users
relying on deprecated data - most likely without
being aware of it - is certainly dangerous for
scientific credibility.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">My suggestion to address this
problem is to use globally persistent identifiers
(PIDs) that are automatically assigned to data
objects (and metadata etc.) on ESG-publication; data
should ideally not be known by its file name or
system-internal ID, but via a global identifier that
never changes after it has been published. Of
course, this sounds like the DOIs, but these are
extremely coarse grained and very static. The idea
is to attach identifiers to the low-level entities
and provide solutions to build up a hierarchical ID
system (virtual collections) to account for the
various layers used in our data. Such persistent
identifiers should then be placed prominently in any
user interface dealing with managed data. The
important thing is: If data is updated, we don't
update the data behind identifier x, but assign a
new identifier y and create a typed link between
these two (which may be the most challenging part)
and perhaps put a small annotation on x that this
data is depreca<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">ted. A clever user interface
should then redirect a user consistently to the
latest version of a dataset if a user accesses the
old identifier.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">This does not make it
impossible to use deprecated data, but at least it
raises the consumer's awareness of the issue and
lowers the barrier to re-retrieve valid data.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">As for the point in time; I'd
be certain that it is too late now, but it is always
a good idea to have plans for future improvement..
:)<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Best, Tobias<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Am 08.03.2012 13:06, schrieb
Kettleborough, Jamie:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Thanks for the replies on this
- any other replies are still very welcome.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Stephen - being selfish - we
aren't too worried about 2 as its less of an issue
for us (we do a daily trawl of thredds catalogues
for new datasets), but I agree it is a problem more
generally. I don't have a feel for which of the
problems 1-3 would minimise the risk most if you
solved it. I think making sure new data has a new
version is a foundation though.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Part of me wonders though
whether its already too late to really do anything
with versioning in its current form. *But* I may be
overestimating the size of the problem of new
datasets appearing without versions being updated.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Jamie<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a>]
On Behalf Of Sébastien Denvil<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Sent: 08 March 2012 10:41<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [Go-essp-tech]
What is the risk that science is<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">done using 'deprecated' data?<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Stephen, let me add a third
point:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">3. Users are aware of a new
versions but can't download files<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">so as to have a coherent set
of files.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">With respect to that point the
p2p transition (especially the<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">attribut caching on the node)
will be a major step forward.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GFDL just upgrad and we have
an amazing success rate of 98%.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">And I agree with Ashish.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Regards.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Sébastien<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Le 08/03/2012 11:34, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Jamie,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I can imagine there is a risk
of papers being written on<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">deprecated data in two
scenarios:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> 1. Data is being updated at
datanodes without creating a<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">new version<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> 2. Users are unaware of new
versions available and<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">therefore using<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">deprecated data<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Are you concerned about both
of these scenarios? Your<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">email seems to mainly address
#1.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Thanks,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Stephen.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">On 8 Mar 2012, at 10:21,
Kettleborough, Jamie wrote:<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Hello,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Does anyone have a feel for
the current level of risk that<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">analysists<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">are doing work (with the
intention to publish) on data<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">that has been<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">found to be wrong by the data
providers and so deprecated (in some<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">sense)?<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">My feeling is that versioning
isn't working (that may be<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">putting it a<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">bit strongly. It is too easy
for data providers - in their<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">understandable drive to get
their data out - to have<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">updated files on<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">disk without publishing a new
version. How big a deal does anyone<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">think this is?<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">If the risk that papers are
being written based on<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">deprecated data is<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">sufficiently large then is
there an agreed strategy for<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">coping with<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">this? Does it have
implications for the requirements of the data<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">publishing/delivery system?<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Thanks,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Jamie<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Sébastien Denvil<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">IPSL, Pôle de modélisation du
climat<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">UPMC, Case 101, 4 place
Jussieu,<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">75252 Paris Cedex 5<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Tour 45-55 2ème étage Bureau
209<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Tel: 33 1 44 27 21 10<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Fax: 33 1 44 27 39 02<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Tobias Weigel<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Department of Data Management<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum
GmbH (German Climate Computing Center)<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Bundesstr. 45a<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">20146 Hamburg<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Germany<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Tel.: +49 40 460094 104<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">E-Mail: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:weigel@dkrz.de">weigel@dkrz.de</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:weigel@dkrz.de">mailto:weigel@dkrz.de</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Website: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.dkrz.de">www.dkrz.de</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.dkrz.de/">http://www.dkrz.de/</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Managing Director: Prof. Dr.
Thomas Ludwig<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 39784<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Scanned by iCritical.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a>><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Gavin M. Bell<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> "Never mistake a clear view
for a short distance."<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> -Paul Saffo<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">--<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Scanned by iCritical.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Tobias Weigel<br>
<br>
Department of Data Management<br>
Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum GmbH (German Climate
Computing Center)<br>
Bundesstr. 45a<br>
20146 Hamburg<br>
Germany<br>
<br>
Tel.: +49 40 460094 104<br>
E-Mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:weigel@dkrz.de">weigel@dkrz.de</a><br>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.dkrz.de">www.dkrz.de</a><br>
<br>
Managing Director: Prof. Dr. Thomas Ludwig<br>
<br>
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg<br>
Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 39784<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
GO-ESSP-TECH mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu">GO-ESSP-TECH@ucar.edu</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/go-essp-tech</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div><span style="widows: 2; text-transform: none;
text-indent: 0px; border-collapse: separate; font: medium
Helvetica; white-space: normal; orphans: 2;
letter-spacing: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); word-spacing:
0px;" class="Apple-style-span">
<div>---------------------------------------------------</div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span">Mark Morgan</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Software
Architect / Engineer</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Institut
Pierre Simon Laplace (IPSL),</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Université
Pierre Marie Curie,</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">4 Place
Jussieu,</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Tour 45-55,
Salle #207,</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Paris 75005</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">France.</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Tel : +33 (0)
1 44 27 49 10</span></div>
<div><span style="color: rgb(84, 0, 0);"
class="Apple-style-span"></span><span style="color:
rgb(84, 0, 0);" class="Apple-style-span">Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:momipsl@ipsl.jussieu.fr">momipsl@ipsl.jussieu.fr</a></span></div>
<div>---------------------------------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Gavin M. Bell
Lawrence Livermore National Labs
--
"Never mistake a clear view for a short distance."
-Paul Saffo
(GPG Key - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://rainbow.llnl.gov/dist/keys/gavin.asc">http://rainbow.llnl.gov/dist/keys/gavin.asc</a>)
A796 CE39 9C31 68A4 52A7 1F6B 66B7 B250 21D5 6D3E
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