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Hi,<br>
<br>
It's probably not relevant to cast my vote here, but I completely
agree with Stephen.<br>
<br>
To put it short, I just can't do much more than what I'm doing now,
and that's far from what's required. I'm pretty sure that's the case
for all of you too. So we are suffering from human resources
shortage, and the help desk will be suffering the most. <br>
I think the open FAQ system is a valid try, we can always shut it
down if it proves to cause more pain that what's solving. But the
truth is, we are lagging behind in terms of usage, especially in
user help, and we just don't have the required men power to catch
up. <br>
Either we count on some tools and people (even the users) to help us
along, or we start thinking in a Plan B ASAP. This won't get solved
by itself, and we are just barely starting.<br>
<br>
My 2c anyways,<br>
Estani<br>
<br>
Am 16.08.2011 11:43, schrieb <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk:">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk:</a>
<blockquote
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi Martin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> The
problem with tagging users or labelling their contributions
as spam is that you may get letters from their lawyers, so I
would start out with a
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> system we
know how to control – there will be enough chaos if we just
open it to contributions from the 40 or so groups who are
running
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> models or
data nodes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">My fear is that
the alternative to not having a system like this is that
communication within the CMIP5 science and data management
community will remain poor. I understand where you are
coming from, because I occasionally follow the
climate-debate blogosphere, but I think we should run with
this system and see where it works for us where it doesn't.
I think we have no hope of designing a system up-front that
does the job nearly as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I believe the
application has the power to control what content is placed
on it. At the moment it's configured to be very open but
cmip5-help can give permissions to users based on their
reputation score. For instance your post is moderated if
your score is below a certain value. Similarly we can set
the reputation required to answer/comment/vote/flag/etc.
Once a question is accepted it can be flagged as
"misleading", "not-relevant", "inappropriate" or anything
you want to configure. Questions can be closed as
"Duplicate", "off-topic", "too subjective and
argumentative", "outdated". Anything that we need that it
can't do could be developed (we have the code) but we won't
know we need it until we have used it for a while.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> We want to
have some system for keeping the content up to date --
perhaps this could be done by tagging answers which are
specific to a
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> current
software version with that version (e.g. “Gateway 1.2.x”)
and then reviewing them as older versions are, hopefully,
eliminated from the
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">>
operational federation,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">In the end this
tool would be *<b>part of</b>* our procedures for
communication and issue tracking. Someone would have to
make sure answers are accurately tagged (maybe with software
versions) and answered if relevant. Closing questions that
are out of date, flagging them, etc. etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Stephen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Stephen
Pascoe +44 (0)1235 445980<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Centre
of Environmental Data Archival<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">STFC
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Harwell Oxford, Didcot
OX11 0QX, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 August 2011 10:01<br>
<b>To:</b> Pascoe, Stephen (STFC,RAL,RALSP); 'Don
Middleton'; Karl Taylor<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org">esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov">esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Go-essp-tech] [esg-node-dev] Re: A
CMIP5 FAQ Application<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi Stephen,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The problem
with tagging users or labelling their contributions as spam
is that you may get letters from their lawyers, so I would
start out with a system we know how to control – there will
be enough chaos if we just open it to contributions from the
40 or so groups who are running models or data nodes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">We want to have
some system for keeping the content up to date -- perhaps
this could be done by tagging answers which are specific to
a current software version with that version (e.g. “Gateway
1.2.x”) and then reviewing them as older versions are,
hopefully, eliminated from the operational federation,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Pascoe, Stephen (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 August 2011 09:49<br>
<b>To:</b> Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); 'Don
Middleton'; Karl Taylor<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org">esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov">esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Go-essp-tech] [esg-node-dev] Re:
A CMIP5 FAQ Application<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I'm confident
the software could be configured to require a login to ask
a question and we could constrain logins to those with
ESGF OpenIDs. However I would put this in the category of
"premature optimisation". If we get spurious questions we
can tag them as "spam" down-vote them or even delete
them. Users can be given a bad reputation score or you
can even ban users.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The system is
designed to be open and, to some extent, chaotic. This
encourages people to get involved whilst allowing the
community to assign value to users, questions and
answers. Therefore there isn't a workflow as such like
you get in a bug tracker. If we want that we should link
questions to bug tracker tickets so that closing a ticket
triggers updating the question. However, I believe too
much process could get in the way here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I'm not
thinking the questions I bootstrapped the system with will
be typical -- they are just what was in my mind at the
time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Stephen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">---<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Stephen
Pascoe +44 (0)1235 445980<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Centre
of Environmental Data Archival<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">STFC
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Harwell Oxford, Didcot
OX11 0QX, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 August 2011 09:33<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Don Middleton'; Karl Taylor; Pascoe,
Stephen (STFC,RAL,RALSP)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org">esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov">esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Go-essp-tech] [esg-node-dev] Re:
A CMIP5 FAQ Application<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hello All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">On the FAQ
issue – I think we do need an FAQ system that many people
can contribute to, but I’d be worried about using an open
one. At the moment we are dealing with a handful of
developers, but we will have thousands of people looking
at the data soon. One web sites work well in co-operative
communities, but I think we would be flooded with
superficial comments claiming to show that the data is
worthless. On the other hand, as Stephen says, there is a
clear need for something of this kind to allow us to
gather the answers which we are all providing to users.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">As Karl says,
there is also a need to make the system work better. I
notice that some of the answers in the mock-up Stephen has
created refer to known bugs which are being worked on –
and will presumably be fixed at some point. When we have
thousands of questions and answers referring to known
bugs, will there be a way of systematically ensuring that
answers are updated when bugs are fixed?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Can we use
the “stackoverflow” system and configure it so that only a
restricted (but large) group of people can contribute?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu]">
[mailto:go-essp-tech-bounces@ucar.edu]</a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Don Middleton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 16 August 2011 00:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Karl Taylor<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:go-essp-tech@ucar.edu">go-essp-tech@ucar.edu</a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org">
esg-gateway-dev@earthsystemgrid.org</a>; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov">
esg-node-dev@lists.llnl.gov</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Go-essp-tech] [esg-node-dev]
Re: A CMIP5 FAQ Application<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi again, Karl - catching up on email
pileup after a bit of vacation. First of all, I really
like what Stephen has put together for collaboratively
addressing user problems, and think this could help us
quite a lot. I personally like using environments like
this when dealing with app software problems.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think there's pretty good agreement
that #1 below is a primary problem area. Getting
consistent deployments is expected to help some, so the
sooner you can upgrade to 1.3.1, the better. The
attribute service being down may have been another issue
here. Site configuration can be a problem as well. The
problem with users hitting something that looked like
dual registration interfaces involved several issues.
The work is pretty much done on improving that a lot,
and that's in 1.3.2 which we'll post more on shortly.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding #2, the community
SOLR-search preview and now the 2.0 alpha are expected
to solve many problems that have plagued us for quite
some time. The sooner that folks can deploy that, the
better for testing and soon making things better for our
users.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">cheers - don<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 4, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Karl
Taylor wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I agree with Stephen that our ability to quickly
respond to the increasing number of requests seems
likely to become overwhelmed. My cursory impression
is, however, that the most common problems reported
will be difficult for the user community to respond
to; they seem to be associated with flaws in ESG
and/or gateway hardware. Am I correct that most
frequent queries to the help desk are related to:<br>
<br>
1. getting error messages, no response, or
incorrect notice that a user doesn't have the proper
permission to successfully download data<br>
<br>
2. having problems finding data using the search
capability (because sometimes this fails to return
all datasets that it should).<br>
<br>
I think NCAR is making progress on the search
problems (2 above), but I'm not sure anyone
understands whether there are bugs or just confusion
that's causing all the problems listed in 1 above.
Perhaps along with thinking about alternatives to
the current help desk, immediate attention needs to
be paid to reducing the real problems encountered by
the user by modifying the ESG software, possibly
modifying the ESG user interface, so users won't be
so easily confused.<br>
<br>
The first step might be to try to confirm that 1
above is causing most of the problems and to pin
down exactly why the problems are being
encountered. I think someone with a bit more
complete technical understanding of ESG should be
able to find the common issues that are being raised
and suggest ways they might be addressed. <br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Karl<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/4/11 7:55 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk">stephen.pascoe@stfc.ac.uk</a>
wrote:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am increasingly convinced that
the CMIP5 HelpDesk isn't scaling to the number of
queries we are getting and definitely won't scale as
CMIP5 gets more use. This is partly our fault at
BADC for not managing to open up the HelpDesk
sufficiently to make it easy for ESGF developers to
contribute. This will improve in the near future
(honest!) but I still think we need a more agile way
to communicate with CMIP5 users.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Therefore I want to float an
alternative solution. A community-driven,
interactive FAQ in the style of
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stackoverflow.com">stackoverflow.com</a>.
The idea is that users, administrators and
developers can collaborate on asking and answering
questions in an open forum. There is a reputation
system and a mechanism for voting for
answers/questions which enables common questions and
good answers to be highlighted. There is also a
tagging system for classification.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have created a prototype
service with a few questions in it at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://esg-dev1.badc.rl.ac.uk/">http://esg-dev1.badc.rl.ac.uk/</a>.
Please take a look and give me some feedback. Even
better create an account and start asking and
answering questions. I have deliberately answered
only some of the questions to encourage people to
get involved. If you don't like my answer add
another one or comment on mine.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If this appears to work for us
the site can be moved to a production server easily
without losing the questions. We could then link to
it from the "Contact Us" page in the gateways and
ask people to email cmip5-helpdesk only for
questions they don't want to share with the
community. I would like to discuss this at the ESGF
telco on Tuesday.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One note. You can use ESGF
OpenIDs to create an account but CEDA OpenIDs don't
work right now. I need to get Phil to fix that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stephen.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">---</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Stephen
Pascoe +44 (0)1235 445980</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Centre
of Environmental Data Archival</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">STFC
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, Harwell Oxford,
Didcot OX11 0QX, UK</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p>-- <br>
Scanned by iCritical. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<p>-- <br>
Scanned by iCritical.
</p>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Estanislao Gonzalez
Max-Planck-Institut für Meteorologie (MPI-M)
Deutsches Klimarechenzentrum (DKRZ) - German Climate Computing Centre
Room 108 - Bundesstrasse 45a, D-20146 Hamburg, Germany
Phone: +49 (40) 46 00 94-126
E-Mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gonzalez@dkrz.de">gonzalez@dkrz.de</a> </pre>
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