<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Thomas et al.,<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Of course there are many "rocks for jocks" courses still around. However, the new, modern high-quality ESS courses and materials are highly qualified as "laboratory science". In any case, at least at UC the University examine each course to see what its content is. The key factor is making it clear from their published requirements that ESS courses are admissable as a laboratory course.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Eldridge<BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 3, 2007, at 7:53 AM, Thomas McGuire wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0px">On 8/2/07 11:34 AM, "Eldridge Moores" <<A href="mailto:moores@geology.ucdavis.edu">moores@geology.ucdavis.edu</A>> wrote:<BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0px">The idea that Earth and Space sciences are not laboratory sciences is absurd. <BR> </SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0px"><BR> Colleagues,<BR> <BR> Unfortunately, Eldridge, I don’t think it’s absurd. Earth science can be as rigorous and have a laboratory component as meaningful as any other science. A number of exemplary local programs exist throughout the country. But the overall quality of teachers, facilities and students does not meet those of the “Nobel Laureate sequence.” The public and politicians are well aware of this. I often hear stories such as a football coach who, as a second thought, also teaches ES.<BR> <BR> Any solution needs to address our own deficiencies as well as public bias.<BR> <BR> Belittling the logic of those who oppose ES as a recognized laboratory science is self serving rhetoric. Probably the most effective solution involves a strong political initiative. Ed Roy with AGI mounted a campaign in TX and found the political waters difficult, devious and deceptive. (alliteration) Ed is a respected administrator at Trinity College and AGI has a major presence in Texas. Frustrations abounded and I don’t know how much they accomplished. But the effort and resources they brought to the task was impressive.<BR> <BR> I was never a fan of Survivor, but I think of it when I become aware of some of the political tactics I see when I’ve run for re-election to our local town council. Scientists tend to take problems straight on and with logic. But if he wants to be a survivor, a gun-fighter shoots his opponent in the back. In politics, which this is, “all’s fair in live and war!” (and politics) I’m not suggesting dishonesty, but I am suggesting that real change is likely to require a close examination of prevailing tactics and a realistic evaluation of the battlefield.<BR> <BR> <SPAN><DIV><image.jpg></DIV></SPAN><BR> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="font-size:12.0px"><FONT face="Palatino">Thomas McGuire<BR> Cave Creek Councilman<BR> 38846 North Spur Cross Road<BR> Cave Creek, AZ 85331<BR> Run for</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN><DIV><image.jpg></DIV></SPAN><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">CESElist mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:CESElist@mailman.ucar.edu">CESElist@mailman.ucar.edu</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/ceselist">http://mailman.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/ceselist</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Eldridge M. Moores, Ph.D., D.Sc</DIV><DIV>Distinguished Professor Emeritus</DIV><DIV>Vice President, International Union of Geological Sciences</DIV><DIV>Geology Department</DIV><DIV>One Shields Avenue</DIV><DIV>University of California</DIV><DIV>Davis, CA 95616-8605 USA</DIV><DIV>Tel: 1-530-752-0352</DIV><DIV>Email: <A href="mailto:moores@geology.ucdavis.edu">moores@geology.ucdavis.edu</A></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>